What is a vintage Gibson guitar?

[charliechitlins]

Yup...it depends.
In the antique vehicle world, 35 years is Antique.
So a totally lackluster '89 Harley 883 Sportster that nobody is likely to care about ever, can be judged along side the "Golden Era" bikes at the Antique Motorcycle Club of America.
I remember when my '64 FLH wasn't eligible yet!
Seems that guitar people have taken the "Golden Era" route, but haven't agreed on what it is.
Probably because its a useless distinction.
Our urge to lump things into categories is pretty out of hand.
Just check out the sub-categories of Metal music.

 

[Xpensive Wino]

Yup...it depends.
In the antique vehicle world, 35 years is Antique.
So a totally lackluster '89 Harley 883 Sportster that nobody is likely to care about ever, can be judged along side the "Golden Era" bikes at the Antique Motorcycle Club of America.
I remember when my '64 FLH wasn't eligible yet!
Seems that guitar people have taken the "Golden Era" route, but haven't agreed on what it is.
Probably because its a useless distinction.
Our urge to lump things into categories is pretty out of hand.
Just check out the sub-categories of Metal music.

Genres of music and motor vehicles are not germane to discussing what comprises the cut-off date for vintage Gibson guitars, surely?

 

[charliechitlins]

Genres of music and motor vehicles are not germane to discussing what comprises the cut-off date for vintage Gibson guitars, surely?

Is that "surely" or "surely?"?

 

[Xpensive Wino]

Is that "surely" or "surely?"?

I refer the honourable member back to my former question.

question mark

1. the symbol ? used in writing at the end of a phrase or sentence to show that…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[charliechitlins]

OK... I'm going grammar nerd here.
Your question isn't a question.
You would have to phrase it something like, "Isn't it so that genres of music and motor vehicles....?"
I find that the British do what you did quite often; e.g. "I wonder if you did this?"
It's just a statement with a question mark at the end.
Are you British?

 

[Xpensive Wino]

OK... I'm going grammar nerd here.
Your question isn't a question.
You would have to phrase it something like, "Isn't it so that genres of music and motor vehicles....?"
I find that the British do what you did quite often; e.g. "I wonder if you did this?"
It's just a statement with a question mark at the end.
Are you British?

 

[charliechitlins]

That's funny.
My ex- always claimed that I invented the world's most passive/aggressive phrase when I looked someone squarely in the eye and said, "I understand that you think that."

 

[jb_abides]

That's funny.
My ex- always claimed that I invented the world's most passive/aggressive phrase when I looked someone squarely in the eye and said, "I understand that you think that."

'I am sorry you feel that way.'

 

[Wound_Up]

Was a 1952 Les Paul considered vintage in 1996 and 1997? Was a '60 considered vintage in 2004?

There's your answer. You cant move the goal posts just because you want to. Or because you think they're not as good as older vintage guitars. Quality doesn't come in to play here. They're all vintage right up until 1980.

Talk about gatekeeping. This is THE WORST example of it. Smh. Bunch of foolishness.

 

[Bryansamui]

Every Les Paul becomes a Vintage Les Paul after a certain 'number' of years.
And that 'number' can't have been less for a 50s Les Paul to turn vintage as for a 90's Les Paul

 

[S. Weiger]

Well
As we all probably know, 'vintage' actually has nothing to do with age. But in the guitar world It has been accepted to be.
Surely decided by some major guitar pushers back in the day?

 

[GlassSnuff]

Was a 1952 Les Paul considered vintage in 1996 and 1997? Was a '60 considered vintage in 2004?

The reality is, in the '70s we knew the '50s guitars were better. It was undeniable to anyone that played both.

There's your answer. You cant move the goal posts just because you want to. Or because you think they're not as good as older vintage guitars. Quality doesn't come in to play here.

Sorry, but it's all about quality.

They're all vintage right up until 1980.

There you go, moving the goal post. The cut-off at 1960 is pretty clear for Les Pauls, because they didn't make them again until the good wood had run out. My brother has my '63 SG now, and he plays it so much he gave his '68 SG away to a friend. What's your experience?

 

[Xpensive Wino]

The reality is, in the '70s we knew the '50s guitars were better. It was undeniable to anyone that played both.

Sorry, but it's all about quality.

There you go, moving the goal post. The cut-off at 1960 is pretty clear for Les Pauls, because they didn't make them again until the good wood had run out. My brother has my '63 SG now, and he plays it so much he gave his '68 SG away to a friend. What's your experience?

Good points.

I think many folks simply don't know the difference because they haven't had the opportunities others have enjoyed, and lack the commensurate historical context and perspective.

People who have had little or no experience playing 1952 - 1960 Les Pauls and comparing them to guitars manufactured later cannot be expected to have that frame of reference to guide their opinions.

 

[Xpensive Wino]

Was a 1952 Les Paul considered vintage in 1996 and 1997? Was a '60 considered vintage in 2004?

Yes. To both.

George Gruhn is (arguably) the world’s leading authority on vintage American electric and acoustic guitars.

“I didn’t buy my first guitar until I started college,” Gruhn remembers. “I have a brother three and a half years younger than me who started playing guitar before I did, but I had a driver’s licence before he did, so I drove him around to look for guitars, and to look for his first good one when he wanted to step up to something better. I discovered how often used (and old) guitars sounded better than the new ones."

However, Gruhn refutes the notion that old automatically means good, and is a firm believer that instruments such as the 1959 Les Paul are iconic simply because they were extremely well made in the first place.

“Frankly, I don’t even like the term vintage as much as ‘golden era’,” he says. “Vintage just implies there is a particular age at which guitars are 'vintage'. ‘Golden era’ implies that for each company – and it may not be the same period for each company. There was a particular era when they really had everything come together right.”

Interview: George Gruhn - Guitar George

No visit to Nashville is complete without a trip to Gruhn Guitars. G&B meets its owner, the world’s leading authority on vintage American electric and acoustic guitars and related instruments.

guitar.com

 

[Arch D. Bunker]

1965 and earlier for Gibson. The Beatles, bless them, royally f€&@d up the US guitar industry. Skyrocketing sales, and to some extent according warranty repairs, were the culprit. For Martin, add CITES.

 

[GlassSnuff]

I think George has the right idea. To call a CBS era Fender "vintage" and charge more then a current Custom Shop Fender is nuts, to point to a clear example.

 

[Xpensive Wino]

1965 and earlier for Gibson. The Beatles, bless them, royally f€&@d up the US guitar industry. Skyrocketing sales, and to some extent according warranty repairs, were the culprit. For Martin, add CITES.

It ain't just Martins affected by CITES. Les Pauls with Brazilian fingerboards are also a nightmare to travel with or ship internationally.

Thread 'So, where are we (the US) at with this Brazilian rosewood/CITES thing?'

Jun 13, 2015

My friends in Germany now all have "passports" for their old guitars with Brazilian RW fingerboards. They get appraisals done by licensed luthiers, prove they bought the guitar before 1992 (I think that's the cutoff date), pay a fee to the government and get their papers.

Do we have anything like that in the US yet?

I'm selling a few guitars and would like to be able to ship internationally without worries.

• hogy
• Replies: 24
• Forum: Vintage 1952-1960 Les Pauls

Gruhn is characteristically frank in his appraisal: “I’d starve to death if I had to rely on Nashville business! Fully 70 per cent of the business I do is out of state.“A high percentage used to be out of the USA, a lot of it was export, but much less so now – one of the prime reasons being the CITES treaty, that made it into a nightmare to export legally. I’m too big to not do it legally! The risk is not just losing the instrument, but you can have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of fines.

“If I were caught sending an instrument with Brazilian rosewood on an international shipment with no permit for it, they could really, really hurt me. I’m 70 and I have no intention of ever retiring as long as I’m physically and mentally able, but I don’t want to spend my so-called golden years in government housing behind barbed wire! [Getting the documentation] is time consuming and expensive, but it can be done. It can cost anywhere from three to five hundred dollars and it can take anywhere from three to five months.

“A lot of people don’t want to wait, so they may buy it from a small-time dealer or private party in the US, who will send it by mail. The chance of getting caught is a long way from zero, and if you’re a bigger dealer and you are shipping a hundred instruments a month, the odds are not so good. The chance of being caught if you are carrying it as hand luggage is pretty small, but it exists.”

“If it was harvested before the ban, it qualifies for a pre-CITES exemption certificate. But they make it so frigging’ hard to get the certificate! I can get a certificate for Brazilian rosewood, but it can still take several months and for a cheap guitar it’s not worth it. For a very high-dollar guitar it can be worth it. If you’re dealing with Martin guitars, you have an additional CITES problem: ivory.”

“Ivory is much more restricted than Brazilian rosewood. New York State, New Jersey and California ban even mammoth and mastodon ivory. If it’s hard and white it’s probably banned!”

“Prior to 1918, if a Martin had white binding on the body it was ivory. Up until about 1917, nuts and saddles were ivory. We can legally take the ivory off and ship it with a bone saddle and a bone nut, but there’s even a fight going on about interstate trade within the USA. NAMM negotiated with the US Fish & Wildlife Service and, at least for interstate, musical instruments can be exempt if they are pre-ban and have less than 200 grams of ivory. So on a big grand piano, it’s pushing the limits. Some big organs with multiple keyboards, they don’t pass. Travelling orchestras have had bows seized.”

Interview: George Gruhn - Guitar George

No visit to Nashville is complete without a trip to Gruhn Guitars. G&B meets its owner, the world’s leading authority on vintage American electric and acoustic guitars and related instruments.

guitar.com

 

[Xpensive Wino]

I think George has the right idea. To call a CBS era Fender "vintage" and charge more then a current Custom Shop Fender is nuts, to point to a clear example.

I find such descriptions amusing. Who wants a CBS-era Fender, anyway?

George has some thoughts about the "relic" craze, too.

"I spent much of my career trying to find instruments that were in pristine, original, clean condition. These days, if you are buying a new Custom Shop Fender, the New Old Stock Model costs less than the Closet Classic model with a little bit of wear, which costs less than the Relic model, which has quite a bit of fake wear, which costs less than the Masterbuilt model that they beat the shit out of!

“But if you buy a New Old Stock model and you play it with a big belt buckle, pick scratch it, it goes down in value because you scratched it! They scratch it, you pay them for it! It’s a source of never-ending amusement to me. But the fact is that more and more I’m having to deal with a new generation of buyers. Baby boomers are aged beyond the active acquisition phase of their life cycle.”

 

[thin sissy]

I'd be all for calling pre '65 "Golden era" Gibsons instead (even though it's a little longer than using the word "vintage").

Then I could join a Golden era facebook group. As it is now, I joined a group hoping to see vintage (pre 65) Gibsons, but instead I mostly see photos of someones 2002 Studio. Because it's over 20 years old, and apparently vintage.

Don't get me wrong, they are great guitars, but not what I want to see when I visit a group dedicated to vintage Gibsons.

 

[Arch D. Bunker]

It ain't just Martins affected by CITES. Les Pauls with Brazilian fingerboards are also a nightmare to travel with or ship internationally.

Sure - but the reference to CITES for Martin was meant to kind of delineate their 'vintage' period cutoff... more specifically the related change to Indian rosewood around 1969 and the introduction of the massive bridge plate from 68-69.