peeninety
Member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2002
- Messages
- 297
Toots Thielemans could be argued to be the pre-eminent virtuoso of the harmonica. But, it sounds like part of your litmus test for a virtuoso is the "worthiness" of the instrument that the given player plays. You seem to be implying that a nylon-string classical guitar is a legitimate musical instrument, but that an electric steel-string guitar — specifically when played at certain volumes or with certain signal processing — somehow isn't. So, in the case of Toots, can you seriously deny or diminish his very real virtuosity on the harmonica, just because the harmonica might be viewed by some as a "lesser" musical instrument, or as "not a real" musical instrument?
Similar things have been said about the difference between an acoustic piano and a synthesizer. But I would have to agree with what Miles once said: "Electric instruments won't kill music — bad music will kill music." (Or something like that.)
Music evolves, obviously. And I, for one, do think we've reached a point in musical history where the concept of virtuosity could be legitimately applied to electric guitarists, including those who use distortion and effects. What about a guy like Al Di Meola? He plays loud and distorted in some settings, but he also has done a ton of flamenco-oriented and classical-inspired music on nylon-string acoustics, at a level of technical mastery that is perfectly commensurate with the traditional meaning of the word "virtuoso."
I would, though, still draw a line of my own when it comes to the use of that word. For example, I do not now (and will never) view a fucking turntable as a musical instrument, nor will I ever view a DJ as a "musician."
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The overuse of the word "genius" is the one that really gets my goat! Don't get me started on that one! If you're not talking about the level of Einstein, Mozart or Gershwin then leave it out!
Myself, I don't like Wynton. The main thing that I don't like about him is that he appears all too willing to believe his own press. And either he or much of the public (or both) likewise seem too quick to put him alongside Dizzy, Miles, etc. as one of the truly great trumpeters. Obviously the guy can play, and I certainly don't fault a person for embracing commercial success or fame. My only gripe with him is that it's like he's appointed himself the "ambassador of jazz," as if he's some kind of tour guide. If you watch him in a lot of interviews — like in the Ken Burns documentary, for example (and don't get me started on Ken Burns.... that's for a whole 'nuther Oprah!) — he talks about people whom he would be chronologically unable to have ever known, as if he knew them personally — going on about their personality traits, etc. I can't remember specific examples of this, but let's just say that just because Wynton is from New Orleans, he can't really comment on what Ferdinand LaMenthe was like as a person. And yet he does shit like that all the time. And most people (especially people not really familiar with jazz) eat it up with a shovel. As a result, I find him irritating. I mean, I once dated a woman who was friends with someone who knew him well, and she was telling me that (at the time, at least) Wynton employed a person to be with him at all times to write down what he said, so that a record of his viewpoints existed (or something like that). 'Nuff said. I can't imagine someone like, say, Bud Powell, ever doing something so positively vain.I find it interesting that you exclude the mighty turntable and the DJ.
Anyway, I don't have a litmus test,especially regarding instruments, a harmonica will do just fine. The definition of the term "Virtuoso" has been contested since its inception. In my view a virtuoso must exhibit exceptional training and skill in music theory as well as on his chosen instrument. He must then use that skill solely for the purpose of elevating the music and resist any trivial display of skill and gimmickry. There are other definitions but I like this one. A distorted guitar ( distortion usually employed to cover up playing deficiencies) played at artificially high volume (any idiot can do that) and aided by use of FX gadgets is not a toolset useful in this pursuit IMO. Let me point out that I enjoy all this stuff a great deal but it gets in the way of becoming a virtuoso, IMO.
Speaking of Di Meola: Al Di Meola is a great player, so is John McLaughlin but "Friday Night in SF" is still a dreadful album in my book. McLaughlin trying to play beyond his abilities and Di Meola forgoing musicality altogether for the sake of flash, leaving poor Paco to keep this trainwreck from derailing completely. I felt that way about it when I was 15 and still do, others may disagree.
It's really quite simple: Andrea Bocelli shouldn't sing Opera at the MET, Keith Emerson shouldn't try to play Piano Concertos and "Johan Sebastian" Malmsteen shouldn't be allowed to come onstage in a tuxedo, is that too much to ask? ( and Steven Tyler shouldn't try to sing the national anthem:ganz )
One more thing regarding Wynton: I think he's a clever guy. He knows his PBS viewing, foreign film loving cultural snob audience (being sarcastic here, don't get worked up) and he plays to them. He reminds me of B.B. King in that B.B. is also very aware of his audience. He's a very successful cross-over artist who manages to keep his credibility intact with his homebase while also delivering to a different segment of music fans who might only know him through guys like Clapton, Green, etc. I'm also reminded of some comments I've heard about Flaco Jimenez. I've heard of many Tejano/ Conjunto musicians' bewilderment regarding Flaco's popularity with gringo musicians. These guys didn't think much of Flaco's abilities and had never heard of this Ry Cooder guy. My advice is to judge for yourself. I like Wynton and Flaco.
What you say makes perfect sense although you're description of Wynton et al. is debatable but let's move past that. I look at (images of) graffiti and understand that many of the traits that make great art are present there and I can appreciate that. Then I look at the Sistine Chapel ceiling and I can merely fathom the awesomeness of it. I don't have the knowledge to appreciate it but I know enough to realize it's not graffiti and I do know that a guy with a spraycan can not contribute anything meaningful, no matter how unique his tag may be. There are 2 kinds of music according to most, good and bad but there are also the categories E-Musik and U-Musik (serious vs for entertainment only) and Jazz straddles the fence to say the least. I prefer all the things that you seem to appreciate in my own musical experience but I try to keep a certain prospective on things. I cringe when lingo is introduced discussing Rock/ Blues guitar...."monstertechnique", "virtuoso" and the like. There are no virtuoso electric guitar players IMO, the electric guitar is a blunt tool designed to make a ruckus ( that's what makes it so much fun) and Malmsteen playing Paganini is a joke even to my untrained ears. We (as a group) are only dazzled because we don't know any better. Ignorance is the prerogative of youth and popular music ( for entertainment value) is essentially stuck in that mode.
I'm sorry Axel, I don't get your meaning with the pic.
...My only gripe with him is that it's like he's appointed himself the "ambassador of jazz," as if he's some kind of tour guide. If you watch him in a lot of interviews — like in the Ken Burns documentary, for example (and don't get me started on Ken Burns.... that's for a whole 'nuther Oprah!) — he talks about people whom he would be chronologically unable to have ever known, as if he knew them personally — going on about their personality traits, etc. I can't remember specific examples of this, but let's just say that just because Wynton is from New Orleans, he can't really comment on what Ferdinand LaMenthe was like as a person. And yet he does shit like that all the time. ...
And to think all these years I have been inspired to the depths of my soul by a hack guitar player from Surrey..... My friend I find inspiration in work that ranges from the primal and gutteral to what many see as the the pinnacle of virtuosity. EC is not a jazz player for sure and I have indeed heard him part the sea while playing in "his" element. I just took this performance as a novelty and enjoyed it for what is really is. We can get bogged down with technicalities in regards to what makes someone a great jazz ,classical, or even rock guitarist but we would miss the point and fun of a performance, painting, or other work of art in the process. I wouldn't call this ignorance...it is anything but that.... I wasn't floored by EC's playing, but I was floored by his artistry and willingness to say publicly that he is sitting in a difficult chair.....So he knew what he was up against and yet took up his courage and expressed himself in a very public way. That to me is the definition of not only a great artist, but a person of character and grace. EC earned grace and we all know he did some deplorable things over the years as a human being (I read his biography too), none of this diminishes his stature as a musician in my view. He has accepted his failings as a human being and rose above addiction, severe heartbreak, and the music business in general to deliver to us some very moving and inspiring work. Layla moves me even more today than when I heard it as a child knowing the story and pain behind it and other songs. In the end the genre makes no difference, or even technical virtuosity...It is being able to make the listener feel your emotions and intentions, even if for a brief second. Wasn't it BB King that said If "I can reach someone with three notes I've done my job"?
Maybe it's the fact that Clapton doesn't really change his style for whatever setting he's placed in. I've noticed that he just 'does Clapton' no matter who he plays with. See, if I were thrown into a situation like that I'd probably try to play a bit of jazz to fit in and fall flat on my face! He doesn't seem to take those chances, just playing blues no matter what's going on around him. You're hoping he'll stretch a bit but he doesn't. Could that be a source of some of the frustration people have expressed?
I agree almost 100% and in my mind what you're saying is really not far off from what I was trying to say. Maybe you think "he won't" while I think "he can't", same difference in the end. But I'd add that in his "guest appearances" (the ones that make sense) he actually "does Clapton better" than on his own recordings of "late". I have no idea why that is.
...How can anyone rule out a distorted guitar as a viable instrument? C'mon now. It is NOT always used to mask anything. It is a sound, unlike a clean guitar, but played on a 6 stringed instrument that is amplified electronically, the notes being fingered on a fingerboard, with frets. Another color for the guitar. Overused - maybe, but it is the sound of modern guitar. And does not get in the way of virtuousity. Producing crappy music with said instrument gets in the way of being a virtuoso.
Does this mean that an electronic organ (Hammond B3 squeezed thru a Leslie) is not a virtuosic keyboard instrument?????
yeti, curious to know what you think of the below-linked performance. Do you view these as serious musical instruments? Would you consider these guys virtuosi, or not?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogxTQXAgY3Q
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Oh man, you can't possibly be lumping Miles Davis in with Wynton. Can you? I will say the Wynton is a very, very, perhaps excessively, gifted player who, by virtue of being able to play pretty much anything with precision and relative ease, never got around to developing the soul of a Miles. Wynton could, and did, do it all. And I respect him completely. But I don't listen to him and I do listen to Miles.. . . I mean, look — Fats Navarro was an innovator, not Wynton. Or Miles, or whoever. Whereas Wynton and his crowd are just guys who have overstudied particular jazz subgenres to death, to the point where it is nostalgia and has no real balls left to it. I'd rather hear Clapton ATTEMPT to play jazz any day of the week, than one of these guys in the band performance posted above, do what they actually "do." At least in the instance of Clapton "attempting," you're going to hear someone stretching and pushing himself. Whereas Wynton and a lot of players like him, constantly play "safe," which shows and is quite boring.
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